Pickett important info! I got this email today.

Shortly after getting this e-mail I called Curt and we had a long discussion on how the land owners are worried about some one getting hurt and the possibility of how to resolve their worries! I told Curt if he wanted to show us the property lines we would respect their wishes if they did not want us riding there but I also told him I thought the ones who he would have to worry about would not be us and they would be the ones who would most likely not respect their wishes if they decided to close the land. Curt has done spoken to the owners of SunnyBrooke parking (whom he said spoke highly of all of you by the way and I would like to thank all of you for that).

They are unsure of what will happen at this time and neither of us are sure how much it would actually affect where we ride if they decided to close the land but they have been throwing around the idea of leasing the land. I think Curt is going to register on this forum and hopefully keep us up to date so we can come up with a solution that will keep everyone safe and happy! He did say they were fixing to put a gate up at the top of the hill above the Chestnut Grove Church due to the fact that they were going to be having equipment in that area but hopefully after the equipment is removed the gate will come back down.  

Feel free to post your ideas in this thread but please keep it friendly!

Here is the e-mail I got:

"My name is Curt Middaugh, and I am a field technician with Landmark Forestry LLC. which is a consulting forestry company based out of Horner, West Virginia with an office currently located in Somerset, Kentucky. I am the person in the area in charge of overseeing activities related to properties owned by Cumberland Forestlands LLC (Investment group) and managed by The Forestland Group (Timberland Investment Management Organization “TIMO”), of whom we are hired by to “manage” said properties. The Cumberland Forestlands currently have ownership of roughly 22,000 acres in Wayne County Kentucky, that was previously owned by a local sawmill until it was purchased from them within the last 2 years. The properties are managed for timber production and maintained as forestlands, however all of the properties are up for hunting leases/ pasture leases through The Forestland Group.



I am contacting you because one of our tracts of land in Wayne County contains 3,500 acres of property located east of State Highway 200 that borders the TN state line and reaches north to the area of Chestnut Grove Church and the Sunnybrook parking area. The property has many trails/roads that run through the property and were at one point maintained by a previous ownership. The trails have since degraded in quality over the years from no maintenance and from heavy use due to recreational riders in the area who use the trails on the weekend. The problem comes with the fact that The Forestland Group does not permit of ATV use on the property unless by Landmark Forestry employees or by a group/groups leasing the property for hunting/pasture uses. I am new to the area, as I just began fulltime employment with Landmark Forestry upon completing my Bachelor’s degree in Forestry, and am trying to get a handle on the activities that are taking place on the properties I now oversee. Upon speaking with the landowner at the Sunnybrook parking area, I was informed of your riding club and figured this may be the best place to start with trying to learn of the ATV use on our tract whether accidentally or purposefully by clubs or local users. We would like to try to better control trespassing on the property, and have signs posted on the property, but still have many issues with people trespassing on many of the properties due to the sheer size of the properties and the fact they are areas the locals have always used and are now under a different ownership than before.



I am hoping you can be of some help and assistance to me in getting a handle on things, and like I said before I am just trying to find a starting point and go from there. Thank you for your time."

I also forgot to mention that I told Curt in my opinion he may want to mention to the owners that us riding on the land is a good thing for them, by allowing us to ride will ensure that the trails do not grow up and will leave them access to the trails and their land when needed. With no traffic fallen trees and weeds etc will take over the land so if they needed to travel the land they would not have access due to nature.

What can we do ?

also with people riding it cuts down on people growing and making dope and other illegal stuff such as poaching big game it would suck to lose such a nice place to ride but it happens all to often

The way I read that is, There's no more riding at pickett. That just sucks.

That does suck we were planning on going up there the 31. So do I understand the land that they own makes up all the trails that we have been running.

Where not sure where the property line is so it is unknown how much it will effect us. Front what I understood the own back to the left when you leave the parking lot but back to the right may be a different ownership. I volunteered to ride with him one day and try to find the property lines so we know exactly where it is. And this does not mean no more riding, he said they are just running over their options at this time so basically all we can do is give them reasons why they should keep it open to try and convince them it would be to their best interests. They have not shut it down yet, just considering there options.

I would encourage to partner with them on the management.  We have more eyes on the ground than they do, and with a shared hotline number we could report any illegal logging activities, fires, or property destruction.  The goal would be to maintain access to the road system only, and maybe even offer to help keep the trail system clear of trees or brush.  This may involve written permission with us signing a waiver releasing his company from any liability. And maybe a sticker that is displayed on our vehicles for whatever fee.  I know many have rode this area for free forever, but I am use to paying for everything and a small sticker fee to help road maintenance is not going to shake me up.

This may also involve a "Paid Membership" on MudandGuts, that if a paid member is out of line on their land, then they lose membership priveleges. (Not sure what that would be, but if we achieve access, we will have people join that we do not know).

Otherwise, say good bye to Pickett.

I live and work 15 minutes from Somerset where Curt's office is located. If there is any thing I can do thru this process please let me know.

Tennessee has a landowner protection law that shields property owners from being liable for injuries arising from outdoor activities. You might want to find out if KY is the same and let them know about it to ease their minds about lawsuits.

DrMud wrote:

I would encourage to partner with them on the management.  We have more eyes on the ground than they do, and with a shared hotline number we could report any illegal logging activities, fires, or property destruction.  The goal would be to maintain access to the road system only, and maybe even offer to help keep the trail system clear of trees or brush.  This may involve written permission with us signing a waiver releasing his company from any liability. And maybe a sticker that is displayed on our vehicles for whatever fee.  I know many have rode this area for free forever, but I am use to paying for everything and a small sticker fee to help road maintenance is not going to shake me up.

This may also involve a "Paid Membership" on MudandGuts, that if a paid member is out of line on their land, then they lose membership priveleges. (Not sure what that would be, but if we achieve access, we will have people join that we do not know).

Otherwise, say good bye to Pickett.

What the Dr said. Good idea!!!!!

Mud-and-Guts wrote:

Where not sure where the property line is so it is unknown how much it will effect us. Front what I understood the own back to the left when you leave the parking lot but back to the right may be a different ownership.

This is from the tax office. I overlaid the tax map onto my NCTM/Pickett GE data. Accuracy is dubious at best, but accurate enough to get a good idea of the relationship with the track data... Oops, toooo large to show here... http://sdrv.ms/14KLlIM ... as you can see, this cuts the heart out of the Wayne Co area...

Wow, that is a lot of the riding area. I hope we can partner with Curt and have a good mutual relationship. Let us know what we can do to help Curt.

That answered my question it does take up a lot of the trails. But like the rest of you have said by us being able to ride there we can help keep an eye out for illegal things and also by keeping the trails clear and open will help them out too. I use to work with forestry and those trails make good fire brakes and easier access for forestry crews for surveys and to fight wild land fire if, that was to happen. So hopefully they will leave the trails open.

So I take it that no one is riding Pickett this weekend? Is that the case?

I would not let this stop me for now, wait and see what happens in the next few weeks.

I think you are right RedRzr, but if you have never rode Pickett and want to I say now is the time to do it.

Got another e-mail guys and it isn't good. I hate to see this but I will respect there wishes.  However as you can read from the email they are watching this thread so keep up the reasons why leaving this area left open to us could benefit them!

"Neil,



I enjoyed getting to talk with you over the issue of the “Pickett Trails” so to speak and thank you for your cooperation and understanding with the concerns and issues I had brought to your attention previously. I wanted to let you know that I contacted TFG (managers for the property) and brought to their attention all that you and I had discussed with regards to the trail usage and the possibility of the accidental trespass onto their property. I have been visiting the discussions on the post you made on your forum to keep up with the ideas and discussion your members are having on the issue at hand, and I will say that many of the ideas brought up seem to be very valid with regards to you guys being able to keep the trails cleared and accessible, keeping an eye out for poaching, timber trespass, fires, drug activity, etc. I brought these to the attention of TFG that there may be benefits to them in leasing/waivers/etc. to a group of riders such as yourselves, and that you all seem to be a very respectful group of people just from our talk and from what I’ve heard/seen from the landowner and discussions on your forum.



Having said this, I’m afraid it’s still not going to be the news you wanted to hear but maybe somewhat expected as one person eluded to on your forum. After my discussions with the regional manager from The Forestland Group (TFG) and sharing all the information I could that I’ve been able to from you and the forum discussions, TFG is not interested at this point in time in pursuing leasing/waivers/etc. to permit recreational riding on the tract outside of hunting leases( which would not allow for joy-riding uses). Upon seeing the latest post on the forum where a member attached a link to a tax map, it has confirmed to me that the majority of the trails are in fact on TFG property. The tax map shows the outline of our tract to a “T” more or less (I’ve attached a map of the tract from our files for you to compare with). I’m sorry to have to be the one to share this with you, but TFG does want to pursue “shutting down” the tract to recreational riders such as you guys and will be implementing gates in areas, and I will make sure the property line is posted better if that is where one of the issues arises. This is all based on the concerns I discussed with you on the phone with liability, trail degradation, and the tract uses TFG pursues such as timber production and protection of natural resources such as soil and water quality. And I do realize we are performing timber harvest which are seen by some to be bad, but TFG is a large group that enforces proper and best management practices to ensure the harvesting performed has a minimal impact on the environment, and strives to promote healthier forests and land resources because they are under strict certification guidelines they must meet on all their properties.



With this, the parking at Sunnybrook will have to end and the trail use on Pickett will be done for now. We would like to maintain a good relationship with you guys though, seeing that you seem to be quite willing to respect the decisions made by TFG in regards to tract uses and will keep you in mind as an option if TFG decides to lease the property for trail uses. If you could, please begin to spread the word of this change in permissible riding areas to your fellow riders and other groups who may currently be using the Sunnybrook Parking and Pickett trails. Please feel free and I encourage you to post this email on your forum so members can read for themselves and help get the word out. If you have any questions or concerns with what I’ve said feel free to call me and I’d be happy to talk to you about it, and I’m also willing to still join you some weekend and show you where the property lines are if you feel it’s necessary.



Thanks again for your time, and sorry for the loss of what seemed to be a good recreational area for you and friends. If there are ever any changes, I will be sure to let you know.



Curt

Landmark Forestry LLC."

Very disappointing but not surprising. Is there enough land around Pickett to ride and stay off their property or not worth the drive to come to Pickett anymore?

I will respect their decision, but please remind them that we are a small, small group compared to the amount of people that ride pickett, so when gates are torn down and property gets defaced that it is not us that will be doing it Our group I'm sure is only a drop in the rain bucket, and most of us have to travel at least a couple of hours to ride there, so it would be a wasted trip to drive knowing it is illegal to ride there.

RedRzr wrote:

I will respect their decision, but please remind them that we are a small, small group compared to the amount of people that ride pickett, so when gates are torn down and property gets defaced that it is not us that will be doing it Our group I'm sure  is only a drop in the rain bucket, and most of us have to travel at least a couple of hours to ride there, so it would be a wasted trip to drive knowing it is illegal to ride there.

Thats what I told him brother, I think they will have a lot of trouble out of the locals trying to close the land, OI don't think it si worth their time trying to close it I think they will have to reverse their decision. I guess I will be doing some exploring around Alpine before long.. You up for a little alpine ride?

Mud-and-Guts wrote:

RedRzr wrote:

I will respect their decision, but please remind them that we are a small, small group compared to the amount of people that ride pickett, so when gates are torn down and property gets defaced that it is not us that will be doing it Our group I'm sure  is only a drop in the rain bucket, and most of us have to travel at least a couple of hours to ride there, so it would be a wasted trip to drive knowing it is illegal to ride there.

Thats what I told him brother, I think they will have a lot of trouble out of the locals trying to close the land, OI don't think it si worth their time trying to close it I think they will have to reverse their decision. I guess I will be doing some exploring around Alpine before long.. You up for a little alpine ride?

I've been wanting to go back there for a while, there is some good riding around there.

I went through this same thing a few years ago. A timber company owned several thousand acres in three counties about 45 minutes from where I live. For years you could buy a permit to hunt and fish on their land. There was miles and miles of trails to ride until they sold out and the new owners stopped all the riding. They sold the small tracts off and kept the large ones with mature hardwoods that hadn't seen a saw in probably 75 years and clear cut it. After that they put it up to be leased for hunting. Some big money out of Florida leased it and then sub leased any they didn't want. I was hoping that Pickett wasn't going to take the same route.

I really hate this BUT I think we all knew it might come !!! Alpin is nice !!

Really really sucks, but it is what it is. Hope we all still continue to ride together at other areas.