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 Pickett important info! I got this email today.

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imbill
Extreme Mudder
imbill

Posts : 866
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 77
Location : pikeville tenn,

Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 25, 2013 11:04 am

Big Dog Daddy wrote:
I'm in. All that are in must keep in mind the purpose this ride. We must keep are thoughts in check.
This could open a new chapter for Pickett or close the book.
      Well put Big Dog !!!
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MattN03
Heavy Mudder
MattN03

Posts : 443
Join date : 2011-10-30
Age : 40
Location : Harrodsburg, KY

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 25, 2013 7:16 pm

If any of Curt's employers are interested, I've got 3 extra seats in the T4 I'd be glad to let them ride in too. I also will respect their wishes but I wish there was some middle ground that both interested parties could make work. I've only been to Pickett twice but really enjoyed the area and the beautiful geography and rock formations. It scares me that something like this could happen in my regular riding spots in Bell or Harlan one day.
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Bluedevil
Heavy Mudder
Bluedevil

Posts : 665
Join date : 2012-10-27
Age : 34
Location : metcalfe, ky

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 25, 2013 9:14 pm

I would drive around a few if need be. I really don't want to loose pickett.
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CNC_guy
Lite Mudder
CNC_guy

Posts : 51
Join date : 2010-06-24

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyMon Aug 26, 2013 9:35 am

I'm curious about the other land owners in the area. The cabin on trail 1 coming in from Dry Hollow, the area around the car hauler that Wayne Lumber wouldn't buy because of liability which probably wasn't included in the sale to Forestland Group, the preaching ground owned by Charles Gibbs who has said he wanted public access to his land. Also, what about much of trail 1 still being listed as a county road? It seems there is much more involved here than throwing up some gates. It sounds like a ride figuring out property lines would be a good idea for the current property owners so right of way and things of that nature can be discussed.
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MIKE_D
Moderate Mudder
MIKE_D

Posts : 182
Join date : 2013-08-22
Age : 39
Location : Russell Springs KY

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyMon Aug 26, 2013 11:12 am

I am new here but I would like to help anyway I can. I have only ridden Pickett once and I fell in love!! Not to mention its less than an hour way. We need to do as much as we can to preserve these natural treasures for future generations.
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DrMud
Over the Top Mudder
DrMud

Posts : 1655
Join date : 2010-11-08
Age : 57
Location : Metropolis, IL

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyMon Aug 26, 2013 12:23 pm

CNC_guy wrote:
I'm curious about the other land owners in the area.  The cabin on trail 1 coming in from Dry Hollow, the area around the car hauler that Wayne Lumber wouldn't buy because of liability which probably wasn't included in the sale to Forestland Group, the preaching ground owned by Charles Gibbs who has said he wanted public access to his land.  Also, what about much of trail 1 still being listed as a county road?  It seems there is much more involved here than throwing up some gates.  It sounds like a ride figuring out property lines would be a good idea for the current property owners so right of way and things of that nature can be discussed.
This is an open forum for all parties concerned, feel free to contact the local landowners and let them know they are about to become a 'gated community".

_________________
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2009 Yamaha Grizzly 700, Yamaha Skid Plates, Yamaha Front Brush Guard, Moose Rear Bumper, Rock Sliders with Richochet Skids, Moose Fender Flares, Hand Guards, Warn Winch, Rotopax twin 2 Gallon gas carrier, SS12 Stainless ITP Rims, 27" Bighorns
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CNC_guy
Lite Mudder
CNC_guy

Posts : 51
Join date : 2010-06-24

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyMon Aug 26, 2013 1:23 pm

I was told by a fellow that has logged the area that this is one of the reasons Wayne Lumber never gated it off. They couldn't get the cooperation from other land owners. That's why they chose to gate off a different area for a hunting lease that was easier to close off. It was a super riding area as well that is about as big as the area in question now.

I guess it's possible Forestland has bought these other land owners out to the point there are no right of way concerns. Surely you would think that a company this large that has been through this countless times has contacted land owners with possible right of way concerns wouldn't you? I would also think Curt would want to get trail 1 off the county road system or at least off of current maps if it has already been removed from the road system.
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Redrzrrider
Moderate Mudder
Redrzrrider

Posts : 330
Join date : 2013-06-08
Age : 41
Location : Gilbertsville, KY

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyMon Aug 26, 2013 1:32 pm

You can not put a gate up on a county road or have it no longer considered a county road without everyone who has property on that road agreeing on it. I dont know if Pickett contains any grave yards, but there are several legal reguirements when you block acces to them.
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Mud-and-Guts
Admin
Mud-and-Guts

Posts : 5943
Join date : 2009-07-15
Age : 40
Location : Celina, Tennessee

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyMon Aug 26, 2013 8:07 pm

I e-mail Curt asking if he wanted to do the ride and this is the e-mail I got.. I replied asking when would be a good day for him..



"Neil,



I greatly appreciate yours and the groups willingness to cooperate with us and respect any decisions we make with regards to the trails, as well as all of the reasons and ideas I have seen stated on the forum. I plan to register on the forum sometime this week so I can keep you guys informed and can take part in any discussions other members may have about the Pickett area, I was busy this weekend so I didn’t have the chance yet. I would be interested in seeing more of the property (seeing that I will be on most of it eventually) and I think it would be a great opportunity to go with someone who knows the trails well and the safest way of seeing the property rather than trying completely on my own. However I don’t believe any representatives from TFG or from Landmark Forestry (besides myself) would be interested in going “site seeing”. TFG at the moment is set on not permitting anymore trail use on the property from groups or anyone else, and they have made that explicitly clear to me. For your sake and my sake I wish they would change that thought but at this point in time I don’t see them changing their minds. I have seen some extremely valid arguments posted on the forum by its members as to why riding should be allowed, but as I said, TFG just isn’t wanting to pursue these routes. In a way you’ve got to realize that there are probably many other tracts owned by TFG that have natural landmarks and historic sites on them, and they are not making exceptions on these areas, so I feel it is probably going to be no different here. And that’s not to say they don’t have a respect for any special areas on the tracts they own, because when it comes to natural or historically significant/special areas, TFG strives to protect them from being destroyed. Just as a quick example, we do not harvest immediately around rock formations and cliff areas. This is due to them being habitat for wildlife such as woodrats, and it is a hazard for equipment to be around. So we leave buffers around these features as to not disturb them.



And as I recall reading in one post, there is a fear we will strip the land of all the trees and sell the rights to a coal company to have It mined. I can tell you that will not happen because that’s not what TFG stands for or strives to do. They are an entity that strives to manage timberlands not only for a means of income to the investors who technically own the land, but strive to maintain and provide healthy forest ecosystems that not only provide benefit to us as human beings, but also to the wildlife that depend on them as well. This isn’t to say we won’t clearcut areas, because clearcuts are a necessary and very good way of managing forest ecosystems. They remove low quality, undesired species from stands and help regenerate even aged ecosystems and forests that are what you are used to seeing as “mature” forest now. What most people don’t realize is almost this entire region of the world (Appalachia) was cleacut in the mid-late 1800’s to fuel westward expansion. The forests we have now and that you enjoy riding through are the results of forests regenerated from clearcuts. They produce a forest that is of even age, and the trees that survive and become dominant are typically those that can grow the tallest and fastest (the healthiest trees). So when necessary we will do clearcuts and without any shame, because sometimes a stand needs a “reset”. This is especially true when an area is high-graded, which is common of most private landowners who have timber cut. They want to “cut the best, leave the rest” in order to make the most money, and this is terrible practice that leaves unproductive and low quality forests. TFG has a third party certification (FSC) that does not permit of clearcuts greater than 15-20 acres in size (don’t hold me to an exact number). My goal as the field technician in charge of determining and marking the harvests on the tracts is to do what is best and most necessary to provide a healthier stand as the end result, all while protecting the environment as much as possibly by limiting harvest near streams, leaving buffers around these areas, leaving wildlife habitat (wildlife of all kind love clearcuts, excellent bird habitat and great forage and browse for large/small game), and not harvesting when inclement weather could cause excessive erosion and sedimentation.



I’m sorry to ramble on like that, but I just want to make clear that we are not the big bad timber barons that some might believe us to be. TFG says they manage the forest because they care about them, and that is the honest truth.



Back on the subject of Pickett, I’m sorry that you guys are losing access to such a nice area but that is not a decision made by me and I don’t want to be see or made out to be the bad guy. I’m just doing my job to the best that I can, and doing what is asked of me and putting in my suggestions and beliefs as to what should be done when It is necessary to do so. As I said, I would be willing to accompany you on a trip to see the boundary line locations and trails to ensure they are marked, and yes I agree with setting that trip up and not making it public. Until then, please try to spread the word among your forum and group members as well as other forums and groups to help aid in reducing future conflicts.



Thanks you for your time and we’ll keep in touch."

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imbill
Extreme Mudder
imbill

Posts : 866
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 77
Location : pikeville tenn,

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyMon Aug 26, 2013 10:46 pm

WOW that sort tells it like it is !! I would like to make this ride as it  looks like the last one we will be doin at Pickett as we know it !!  BUT it looks like I will be in Oklahoma at little sahara state park tryin to ware out my Banshee.s  in  the sand dunes !!!
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GooFlicker
Lite Mudder
GooFlicker

Posts : 33
Join date : 2013-01-10
Age : 51
Location : Cumberland County

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 2:36 pm

It's a shame, could be made into a nice official place to ride. But if they say "NO" then I understand and will not be back.
On the other hand, they are going to have a hard time keeping people off an area that has been a place to ride on over many years. Good luck with that!!!!
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zukmancdr
Beginner
zukmancdr

Posts : 2
Join date : 2013-08-27

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 9:31 pm

Hello, I am new here from another forum. I am a member over on the Tnjeeps.com, It saddens me that such a great place is being taken from us.
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Dadof4Brats
Moderate Mudder
Dadof4Brats

Posts : 163
Join date : 2013-02-06
Age : 55
Location : Baxter, Tennessee

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyTue Aug 27, 2013 11:27 pm

Well guys, here is my 2 cents worth.
It has been a while since I rode with most of you at Pickett. It saddens me also to lose a place that friends can gather and enjoy the creations that have been given to us. I too will respect the landowners request but also agree with others that they will have a really hard time keeping everyone out. You better get some really big gates. Let us know when some are riding Alpine. That is close to the house and a place we would love to see.
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DrMud
Over the Top Mudder
DrMud

Posts : 1655
Join date : 2010-11-08
Age : 57
Location : Metropolis, IL

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyWed Aug 28, 2013 12:00 pm

I have struggled with what my action will be, whether to go green and environmetal and try and shut this whole deal down by e-mailing and linking this thread to every environmental group and politician out there. But in retropsect and some thinking, I beleive TFS management of the property will be better than what the government can and will do.

Anybody watching Yosemite burning down? Some clear cut spots might have helped a little there. Plus my Grandfather on my Dadddy's side was a logger, he would get the trees out to where the mules could hook on to them, a big strong man. He would roll over in his grave if I went greenie on him.

I am a respecter of property, I am out until they say that we can ride there again or work something out with a waiver etc. Safe logging boys.

_________________
2013 RZR 800 S LE, Blue, bunch of stuff.

2010 Yamaha Grizzly 700, Yamaha Skid Plates, Yamaha Front Brush Guard, Yamaha Fender Flares, Rock Sliders with Richochet Skid Plates, Moose Rear Bumper, Back Rest (Flea Market by Brimstone), Hand Guards, Warn Winch, 27" ITP Mudlites or 29.5 Outlwas with AMS Rims.

2009 Yamaha Grizzly 700, Yamaha Skid Plates, Yamaha Front Brush Guard, Moose Rear Bumper, Rock Sliders with Richochet Skids, Moose Fender Flares, Hand Guards, Warn Winch, Rotopax twin 2 Gallon gas carrier, SS12 Stainless ITP Rims, 27" Bighorns
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t4fireman
Lite Mudder
t4fireman

Posts : 66
Join date : 2013-06-28
Age : 41
Location : Hermitage Springs, TN

Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyWed Aug 28, 2013 12:33 pm

I hate to have lost pickett we were just getting to know the trails a little. Willing to help if I can to keep it.

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LMForester
Beginner
LMForester

Posts : 3
Join date : 2013-08-28

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyWed Aug 28, 2013 8:39 pm

Hey guys,

Sorry I didn't join this forum sooner than now, but I'm Curt the forester with LMF.

As you've probably come to realize, the majority of the area you refer to as Pickett is actually on Cumberland Forestland's property and managed by The Forestland Group. And it has been their decision to try and stop the trespassing on their property for liability issues and other reasons pointed out previously. I do realize how big of a challenge it will be for us to try and control the trespassing, but I've got to make an attempt at it somehow or else I wouldn't be doing my job. I've read a few other posts where there was concern over us gating off trails and the impacts on surrounding and internal tracts owned by other landowners. We have taken their interests into consideration, and those with legal right of ways or access to adverse properties within our boundaries will still have access to those properties. They are not becoming part of a "gated" community as mentioned in another post.

As I tried to explain in my emails to Neil, TFG does not aim to strip the land of all the timber then blast the mountains away for coal. They stand for forest management that strives to provide healthier forest ecosystems and have the environment in mind by following Best Management Practices (BMPs) as published by the state, as well as performing timber harvest that aim to improve the current forest stands, or provide the basis for better future stands by performing harvests that encourage regeneration (Clearcuts, shelterwoods, etc.)

I realize you all are losing a wonderful area to ride, but that is really out of my hands. I told the managers of the suggestions you guys have posted on here, and their decision is still the same and unchanged. I do greatly appreciate all of the cooperation and respect you guys have for the decisions made by the managers, and being level headed and not raising all heck over this. I will be sure to inform you guys if there is ever a decision to change the access on the tract, and perhaps they decide to lease for riding or something of that nature. Until then all I can ask is that you please respect the decision made, and help spread the word to friends and other groups who may use the Pickett trails so they are aware of the change and won't waste a trip there to find it has been posted or gates installed.

I'll try to respond to any questions that anyone has, and again I appreciate how understanding you all have been.

Thanks,
Curt
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Big Dog Daddy
Extreme Mudder
Big Dog Daddy

Posts : 1484
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Location : Monticello

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyWed Aug 28, 2013 9:05 pm

Curt, welcome aboard. I have begun to spread the word along with reasons as I know them. I think keeping folks off the land will be a long and great task. I would like to think and I do believe our group will respect the decisions made by you and your group. That being said without going around you, but through or with you can any more lobbying be done at this point ? Thank you for your time and consideration on this issue.

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imbill
Extreme Mudder
imbill

Posts : 866
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 77
Location : pikeville tenn,

Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyWed Aug 28, 2013 9:10 pm

Big Dog Daddy wrote:
Curt, welcome aboard. I have begun to spread the word along with reasons as I know them. I think keeping folks off the land will be a long and great task. I would like to think and I do believe our group will respect the decisions made by you and your group. That being said without going around you, but through or with you can any more lobbying be done at this point ? Thank you for your time and consideration on this issue.
x2 !!!
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Coyote
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Coyote

Posts : 1
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyWed Aug 28, 2013 10:03 pm

Hello,

Another member from TNJeeps here. It seems you guys are kind of leading this charge on this issue, although at this point it doesn't look like we have much of a chance. Curt has stated that the owners apparently do not care. Personally I think they are going to end up loosing money. A lot of the people have went there for years are not going to care that its no longer open to the public. They will simply go around the gates or find another way into the area. There are already more entrances than I can count, some not even numbered or mapped. The only way they are going to keep people out is by hiring full time roving security, buying off road vehicles etc. The police are not going to station themselves there 24/7. Not saying that I will or that anyone from TNJeeps will, nor anyone from Mud and Guts will but a lot of people who are local that have visited the area every weekend for years simply won't care that they are trespassing.

Zukmancdr who posted above have met people that come down from Ohio every weekend to ride and enjoy the area. People come from all over to rides these trails and enjoy the sites and the natural beauty of the area. There have already been numerous posts stating the benefits of leaving the area as an open OHV to local groups. I can't do much else than restate those.

There are many streams/creeks and plenty of places to hide, especially in a remote area of Tennessee that no longer has large groups of people in it. Drug producers from meth cooks to marijuana growers are going to flock to it. That region of Tennessee and Kentucky already has a huge meth problem. Giving them a safe haven to produce it won't help. Having people in the area camping and riding stops that. They would smell the labs and spot the waste in no time. The streams would also be ideal for anyone wanting to create a moonshine still. I would be more concerned with the liabilities from the Sheriff's department finding pot fields, meth labs and stills on the property than the off-road riders damaging the property or injuring themselves.

Here is a video from one of our groups last trips out there. While not all of it is on the property in questions a great deal of it is.

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CNC_guy
Lite Mudder
CNC_guy

Posts : 51
Join date : 2010-06-24

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyThu Aug 29, 2013 11:05 am

Curt, coming from a local guy standpoint, which apparently locals have a pretty bad name according to some stuff I've read lately with the news of the area closing getting around, there are some things you will probably want to know.

You will be fighting a mentality that started with the Kogers that used to own the area and built the majority of the roads.  Jerry Koger used to see folks loaded down with dirt bikes at a gas station and invite them to ride the area whether he knew them or not.  He enjoyed building roads and he enjoyed folks riding there and admiring the scenery that so many in this thread have talked about.  This went on for years until Wayne Lumber purchased the land and it became a free for all with little to no trail maintenance and no owner presence.

You will also be fighting the mentality that at least one trail, basically the main trail coming from Dry Hollow, is a county road.  I know it is listed on several maps and I'm pretty sure EMS has it listed as a county road as well.  I have no idea if it really is in the county road system at all.  Also, many believe that a lot of those trails are fire trails/breaks and that it's in the public's best interest to keep them cleared and that recreational riders are actually doing a service by keeping them cleared.  I'm just passing along the things I've heard from folks around here....not saying that these are my thoughts.

Now, as far as locals around here....yes, you will have trouble out of about 10% of them.  You can expect gates to be torn down and trails to be made around gates.  There is a young group of local guys in trucks that caused another area to get closed because they wouldn't respect the land owners wishes which were very basic common sense things.  Initially, you will have trouble out of these guys.  My suggestion is to take a half page ad out in the Wayne County Outlook for at least two weeks explaining what is going on with the area.  I would even go as far as to put it on Z93 radio for a couple weeks.  Let folks hear it from the horse's mouth so to speak so there is no room for reading into rumor and hearsay.  Most people will honor the lumber company's wishes and ride elsewhere.

As far as out of towners, you will have trouble from those folks as well.  Again, 90% of these people are fine but there are a few that abuse the area and hit the road back home.  My family has had personal experiences with a few over the years on Edward's Mountain.  These will more than likely be people that are not on off road forums like this or members of off-road clubs.  For every poster on this forum, there are probably 200 riders that have never been on an off-roading forum and have no clue that this is happening. I'm not sure how you will get the word to them short of having your people posted up at all the trails into the property and there are several trails that feed into the area.

This will be a huge task and it will take a lot of resources to make it happen. I can't help but believe that the area could be made into an OHV park much like Coal Creek did with their property and it would be a lot less trouble and actually benefit everyone involved including the lumber company.  I'm sure that's just wishful emotional thinking on my part though.
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Big Dog Daddy
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Big Dog Daddy

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyThu Aug 29, 2013 8:39 pm

Great post Cnc_guy. On point.

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cole795
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cole795

Posts : 24
Join date : 2013-05-01
Location : Metcalfe Co Ky

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 7:00 pm

As everyone else has said, I to would/will hate to loose this great ridding area. A place were one can take there children and family to enjoy the great views and scenery that God had created. Curt I respect and understand that you are just doing your job,and thanks to you for getting on this great forrum and explaining yourself and what's going on. As alot of us that work for businesses and companys, we know that upper management tends to not look at a big picture just whats in there views.Im not meaning that in a bashing way ,but its the truth.

Quetsion to some of the riders that are more familiar with this area: Is there areas around their lumber lot that we could possible ride on?
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cole795
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cole795

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 7:10 pm

Redrzr, Where is Alpine? Is it a good place to ride?
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Dadof4Brats
Moderate Mudder
Dadof4Brats

Posts : 163
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Location : Baxter, Tennessee

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PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 9:11 pm

Has anyone ever looked into the old coal property south of Sparta on Highway 111? I know parts of it have sold off in the past years but not sure how much. I have seen signs as to who the old coal company was but my brain is old and I just can't find it right now. It may be something worth looking in to. Just my thoughts.
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possume22
Moderate Mudder
possume22

Posts : 322
Join date : 2012-09-20
Location : middle tn

Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 1:58 am

you havent been able to ride that area in several years i miss it and hwy 8
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Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pickett important info! I got this email today.   Pickett important info! I got this email today. - Page 3 Empty

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Pickett important info! I got this email today.
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